Revealing "secret hot spots" - good or bad?

Gentlemen, something has been troubling me about some of the views expressed on the Tasik Prima thread for some time now. The same point of view is expressed in other threads as well. I have thought about it quite a bit, but remained silent because I couldn’t quite put my finger on what it was that bothered me about the attitude.

Some people have expressed their fear that by revealing good fishing spots on a public forum, the places will be invaded by anglers with poorer ethics than we support at MFN as well as those with the intention of netting, bombing, electrocuting and poisoning everything in sight. The fear is that a good fishery will quickly be cleaned out and therefore hot spots should be kept secret.

I have identified what it is that bothers me about this attitude, aside from the fact that individuals come to the forum and gain information, but are not prepared to reciprocate by giving back something. Their argument would be that they are protecting their fishery. I think they are wrong and I think they are doing angling and the fishery a disservice.

First of all, how far do we carry this secrecy line of thought? Do we only hide our hot spots or do we extend it to techniques, tackle, baits and other information hard earned by experienced anglers? How much poorer would the MFN forum be if there was no information sharing? Beyond MFN, there would be no fishing magazines, no fishing articles, no Ayer Kuning get-togethers and ultimately no MFN forum.

That might actually be the price we all have to pay for protecting fisheries from harm, but I don’t think so. In fact I think it has the opposite effect and here’s why. When I fish these places and see nets, set lines and worse, I also see the vast majority of the people on the banks are rod and line anglers just like me. They may have different ethics and fish for different reasons, but they are rod and line anglers. Without information sharing, the rod and line anglers on the bank are not being exposed to and educated about ethical angling and catch and release. Young guys just getting into the sport have nowhere to turn for information and encouragement when they are just setting out in our sport. In short, secrecy weakens the angling community.

Whilst it’s true that rod and line anglers do not catch as many fish and do not do as much damage as the netters and bombers, who are we trying to save the fisheries for? It’s a small minority who ruin the fishery for the rest. Without a strong angling community, there’s no voice to sound the alarm bells and campaign for better fisheries management. Without a strong angling community, in the long term, there’s little point in saving any fisheries for anyone. It’s the angling community that makes long term fisheries management worthwhile. So whilst keeping spots secret saves those places temporarily to the benefit of a few, it weakens the angling community and in the long term damages the campaign for fisheries management.

Now on the other side of the argument is the post from Joe Fisherman, (2 posts} who says “Hey guy’s, where’s the hot spot?” This is disrespectful. Remember the guys in the know have done the leg work. They have been out there and they have put in the time to find out. Rather than join a community to learn how to fish and share the latest techniques and hot lures, these guys want to short cut the process. Fish here, use this lure and catch these fish.

Far better, I feel, to learn what features make a hot spot a good place to fish. Isn’t it better to learn what techniques to use under different circumstances, than to be led by the hand and told to cast here with this lure? Are we teaching each other to fish or are we just interested in catching fish without knowing why or how?

I have set myself a challenge to catch Toman in Tasik Prima on soft plastics only and I have written an in depth look at how I’ll do it, before I even try. It adds to the challenge I have set myself. It takes apart the patterns I have observed, the terrain elements of the fishery and the types of places Toman are found as well as looks at the sorts of techniques I’ll use to catch these fish on soft plastics (or indeed on any lures). It necessarily gives away a great deal of information that could be misused by those who would poison, bomb and net the types of locations I refer to.

I don’t think it will make the slightest difference to the short term future of Tasik Prima, but I do think it will be useful to anglers who wish to know more about soft plastics. Do I publish it here and let the angling community extract some pieces of possible value in using soft plastics, or do I keep it a secret and try to protect the fishery from abuse by the minority who stuff it up for everybody?

I’m opening this up to discussion so I can understand the views of both camps.

I’m real glad you brought this subject up for discussion, Marlin. …Very timely… got to do some chores so can’t post now, but am really looking forward to forumers sharing their thoughts on this one.

<><ICHTUS><>

Dear Marlin,

Once again your postings have brought great value to this forum. It makes me want to come here again and again. I initially joined this forum to gain knowledge and share experiences, and I believe that I have learned alot from your postings. (tho i have by so far very little success in sofbaits, I am still learning) [:I]

On your topic about keeping places secret, I totally agree with you that it is a very short term view. Yes the anglers are keen to keep the place from unethical fishos but then again, in a place like Klang Valley, how effective are you in keeping quiet. If you don’t mention about the place, someone else is eventually going to mention it. Therefore, you views about educating the rod and line anglers are straight to the point. It is just like sex education. If you don’t teach your kids it, someone else is going to do it… and it might not be right.

As for your second view… as you so eloquantly put it… I will summarise it as freeloaders. [:D] Yes there will be people that will come in just to find a shortcut to “success” but then again, does reading up about techniques and lures makes a person an instant success. Does finding out about good or sweet spots through the forum without having to do the leg work guarantee the person lands a whopper? Well, I read up a lot about race car driving, I memorised the driving styles of Keichi Tsuchiya and I even donwloaded his drift bible… but that does not make me an expert. Heck I cant even execute a handbrake turn!!!

As in life, there will always be people who wants to do things the fast and easy way. Maybe one way to curb that on the forum is in form of a forum etiquette where if you do not share your experiences… or are not willing to genuinely seek knowledge… then you will get little of no help. But then again it boils down to the first issue… if you keep quiet because of a few selfish idnividuals, will the general fishing public lose out eventually? I think so.

Just my two cents worth.

Regards,

D

Well said afro_d.

Vincent

* Team Spinboyz - U1 2004 * Team MalPro - U2 2004 * Team Lucky Craft Happy Hookers - U3 2005 * Marshall - U4 2006 *</font id=“size1”>

“We (MFN forumers) are a few but together we are many. We are many among the millions of anglers yet to have their voices heard” - Majulah sukan memancing untuk negara

Hmmm… to tell or not to tell, that is the question… Marlin, u brought up another issue that I think bugged every angler sooner or later in our pursue of this hobby.

It’s certainly a dilemma especially knowing majority of the angling community in Malaysia don’t even have the word “CnR” in their dictionary. I don’t mind sharing techniques and experience but I still have reservation in revealing good spots to every Tom and Harry. It’s not because I’m selfish but I have seen it too many times how a spot get clean out in just a matter of days, mostly by the netters and those that pratices unethical harvesting method.

Not unless one day when the Goverment decided to implement somekind of regulation and control for both netters and recreational fishing along with effective enforcement, then I will be willing to share everything without reservation. I can do this during my time in Canada but not yet in Malaysia.

Still, even if we’re willing to share everything, something just can’t be taught, one has to figure it out and learn from it. For me, the most exicting part of fishing is figuring out the code for every species, what makes them tick and why…??? Catching fish is just a consolidation prize…[;)]

Yet, I think Marlin brought up a valid point, I’m incline to agree, as a whole, keeping secrets will only weaken our resolves in promoting proper conservation and ethics for angling. It certainly makes me think, whether by not revealing good spots and not fishing with them, I’ll be turning away any potential candidates that might become a CnR and conservation minded fellow sport anglers in the future???

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Even after all these years of fishing, there’s still so much to learn and techniques and tackle are improving all the time. I tend to read magazine articles and even this forum and I’ll read a small piece and think “that makes sense, I’ll try that”. Or someone will show me something I haven’t seen before while we’re fishing. It’s like a light coming on, not only do you understand how, but you understand why as well. It’s an essential part of keeping pace and learning new things. I’d hate to have to discover all these things myself. Very often I’ll try something I’ve read about and it doesn’t quite work, so I’ll modify it and play around with the technique until the results come. The original spark came from something I read. The rest is down to persistance and a willingness to try.

afro_d, it’s common to hear people say they can’t catch fish on soft plastics, and when I hear that, I know it’s usually a few small things that are preventing success, things that are easy to correct. Sharing those little things is good for everybody. I would enjoy an opportunity to fish with you and share some ideas.

Fishnut, you hit it right on. The challenge is consistent success. Knowing how isn’t enough, it’s knowing why that makes you better. And fishing is about being there and doing it. Catching fish is a bonus. I don’t know where I’d be without my regular fix! I think I’d fish in a puddle if that’s all there was to fish in.

I think most anglers wrestle with the desire to share whilst at the same time wanting to keep their hot spots safe from even their best mates! A new wreck for instance, the co-ordinates of which are guarded with vigour, even to the point of making sure no other boats are around before you fish that spot. If someone comes along in another boat, you move in double quick time, lest they find your spot. Yes, I do it myself! However, the techniques I use while fishing these spots I’ll willingly share. Even if a spot isn’t cleaned out, fishing pressure makes fish harder to catch and we all like those trips to virgin areas where the fish climb up the bank or throw themselves in the boat to try and eat your baits.

In freshwater, the best spots are usually proportional to distance and ease of access. If you can drive your car up to the pond and fish by just opening the door, there will be lots of people fishing. If you have to do some driving, off road stuff, or even leg work, the further you go, the less people there will be and the less fishing pressure. I don’t think revealing the location of a pond has anything to do with how many people will fish it. Tasik Prima is hardly a secret! And I actually enjoy the challenge of attempting to catch fish that are difficult to catch.

After all, it’s because fish are harder to catch and there are less of them that we have the superb tackle and refined teqchniques we have today.

Bro Marlin, would love to fish with you sometime too. I am very very new to lure fishing. I learned bait fishing in Penang back in my schooling years with Dr. Heah. He my original sifu [:)]

I find lure fishing more intriguing as the challenge is always there to entice the fish to take the lure. I still have lots to learn but I believe I am going to enjoy every bit of this journey. Meanwhile… I will have to re read your postings on soft baits and try out myself till I have the opportunity to fish with you.

Cheers dude!

So far only those in the “for” canp have spoken. I know I have expressed my own opinion, but I’m open minded. How about those in the “against” camp? What’s your point of view?

I would not share good spot openly, the last time I revealed was during my teenage and it didn’t turn out as what I was expecting. Marlin, your idea to share is noble but there are different anglers out there who fish, think and litter differently so I would not take any chance.

Ktang, thank you for your post. I know this is a provocative topic. I think I mentioned that I have a database of GPS co-ordinates from Ujung Kulon, some of which I know are common knowledge and some I know are not. I would not publish those co-ordinates, not because I do not want other anglers to fish them, but because I don’t want the commercial guys to get hold of them. Like Malaysia, there are no laws in Indonesia to protect the fishery.

So I’m curious. Last time you revealed a secret spot it didn’t turn out as you expected? What did you expect and what actually happened? I’m curious about the downside. Is the downside an effect from destructive fishing practices that shouldn’t be allowed anyway or is it an effect from anglers themselves? The reason I’m asking is because, aside from keeping secret spots secret, is there anything anglers as a group can actually do to change things so that the negative impact is reduced?

Marlin, I once took my friend to a wild pond that I used to love so much to fish. Well, if I tell you the haruan there is so plentiful till the extent that I can test the effectiveness of my different self made spinners, probably you will get some idea how good was the fishing there.

The place was rather “virgin”, as easily observed from there were no cleared bank for anglers to cast and weeds were covering most part of the pond. Not long after, my friend brought his friends, and as I fished there sometimes, I noticed weeds were cleared, bushes were cleared, dead small fishes all over.

Then I came to KL to study. In one of my semester holiday I visited the pond again and found out the pond was completely different; weeds all cleared, burnt mark, rubbbish, news paper, broken net etc all over the place. I finish my fishing there with poor ending and learnt something that day.

This friend of mine is now practising medical doctor in US. I believe he must have forgotten this incident, but I still remember because I’ve made a mistake. With the experience, we are still good friend today. In fact, the case where he took his friends to the pond did not make him a less good person or become less good friend of mine, just that people take fishing and valued fishing differently.

my 2 cents…

ktang, if it helps, I think many of us know places like this. It’s being a bit tough on yourself to blame all of that on the fact you took one friend fishing there.

I used to fish a pond in Cheras. It was heavily fished by all sorts of rod and line anglers, netters etc, but was still very productive. I saw some of the worst examples of selfish and destructive behaviour at this water that I ever care to see. It had a block of flats on one side but just waste ground on the other side. Someone cut all the trees down and cleared the land. Now they are building on it and there are no entry and no fishing signs all over the place. Development in KL is taking away many of these waters a lot faster than people are ruining them. I’m afraid this may well be the ultimate end for for that other worst kept secret being discussed; Tasik Prima.

I’m not sure the fate of your water would ultimately have been any different if you’d kept it secret. One thing is for certain, everyone I speak to on this forum is working towards better fisheries management and environmental awareness. I don’t know where the path will lead or what the results will be, but I do know it won’t go anywhere without a strong and united angling community to both recognise the problem, lead by example and fight for legislation to protect these waters.

I’m still really new to Malaysian fishing and from my limited experience would have to say that our fight is not with keeping things secret from fellow anglers but with developers and the mass fishing techniques.

Our collective battle is to find and fish these hotspots while they last. It doesn’t matter how secret we keep our hotspots, before long urban sprawl of the developers and the roaming of the netters will find them.

I would like to think (and hope) that all readers of this forum are good anglers and conservationists.

Maybe our secret is this forum, within which we can openly share our discoveries and fish together in a friendly manner.

Collectively we can share and enjoy the hotspots before they become ruined by others (hopefully outside of this forum).

Marlin’s approach to Tasik Prima and afro d’s planned mission to Kelana Jaya (which I briefly joined) are great examples of fellow anglers working together and sharing.

Not only will we have more hotspots if we share, but the collective experience of fishing together means that we can learn from each other and pick up tips and tricks to make us all better anglers.

I certainly look forward to my next outing with you guys - even if the fishing is poor, the company is good.

Lets hope that next time both are good (No pressure Marlin [:)] )

Posted this on the “question” thread, but it belongs here as well.

I think there’s a couple of extra issue here. Firstly, man made mining ponds anywhere, but particularly in and around KL are often environmental disasters in their own right. Fish love them, but it’s tough to see how man could make the bankside environment any worse than it already is. I don’t see large numbers of anglers as a problem in this respect. Fish stocks are also healthy in many of these ponds despite intense pressure, but fish could perhaps be protected from nets and set lines and other damaging practises which are actually pretty selfish considering the water is public, but the minority seem hell bent on getting more than their share of the resource. These ponds are often only transient anyway, as development swallows them up. These are different issues completely to the threats associated with wild and natural ponds and rivers, where degredation of the bankside environment can have a very drastic impact on the fishery.

Which leads me to the second problem. There seems to be a common attitude in Malaysia, visible from the actions of those involved that “public” places means anyone can go there, you have the right to do what you like and no-one can stop you from doing it. In my country, a public place means that anyone can go there (this much is the same), but there is a responsibility placed on users that because it is a public place, individuals must look after it because everyone else has an equal right to enjoy the place as well. It’s the exact opposite attitude. It’s a public place which belongs to everybody, therefore I DO NOT have the right to do whatever I like. I’m not sure how this kind of thinking might be changed, but I think it’s clear which attitude is better for the environment and the people who like to enjoy it.

revealing the secret spots? my question is - is there any secret spots exist in Malaysia when now organized illegal netters are using Helicoptor to haul up the whole pond in the middle of no where in Pehang.

and another question is since you call it a secret spot, why do you want to let everybody know and detroy it?

as Marlin said “There seems to be a common attitude in Malaysia, visible from the actions of those involved that “public” places means anyone can go there, you have the right to do what you like and no-one can stop you from doing it”. “Responsibility” is the question to answer whether or not you should reveal the so called secret spot.

A secret spot is no longer a secret spot after u reveal it to the public. To me I practice selective revealing – only to those I know will handle the responsibility of the knowledge of a “secret spot” with conservation in mind. Would u reveal a productive spot to a netter or a haruan spot to a rawai guy? So I’d say armed with the knowledge of a secret spot, it is ur responsibility as well to guard it from the wrong hands.

Regards,
LaPala

LKG Member: http://longkanggang.blogspot.com/
LureMaker: http://www.pbase.com/sebarau/lure_stuff</font id=“size1”>

I’m not sure about the direct link between “revealing” secret spots to other anglers and the picture we’re painting of irresponsible anglers causing their inevitable “destruction”. Whilst destruction sadly may be the ultimate fate of any publically accessible water, it would appear for the most part that it isn’t rod and line anglers who are primarily responsible for this destruction.

The inevitable consequence of this destruction is the desire to keep these places secret from everyone as the only control method individuals have for preventing or delaying their demise. I would observe that this method does not seem to be a solution to the problem, even on a short term basis, much less the longer term. It doesn’t work. The problem lies elsewhere.

Handling the knowledge of a hot spot responsibly is just the same as fishing responsibly, taking your trash home, not destroying bankside vegetation, observing reasonable limits and releasing unwanted fish unharmed. Hopefully we all do this as part of ensuring the future for our sport, but I know this isn’t necessarily always the case, hence the need to relieve the burden from individual responsibility to legislation that applies to all.

Which brings me back to my original point about a strong and united angling community. Because unless anglers and other resource users fight for it, there is no-one else who will.

Yes very true Marlin. Actually screct fishing spot are just castles in the air if there are no strong legistration and cooperation from all concerned to protect our little resources. Like u have mentioned in earlier post, education will be the best defend aginst these destructions. Perhaps the policies makers in future are not as blind to this predicament as the ones we have now. It is a sad scene to see as other developed countries has done their share of destroying their resources and have came up with remedies and policies to protect their environment. Malaysia should use history as a lesson and not repeat the cycle only to have to spent countless tax payers money to repair the damage which can be avoided. [:(]

Any suggestions as to what a community of angler can start to do to help our resources from inevitable destruction? Promoting CnR and responsibile angling is just wishfull thinking as long as major destruction such as logging, pollution and indescriminate development encroaches into the pristine spots. Pushing for legislation on fish resources is one course? Or perhaps we have to really tackle the greater evil of environmental destruction and commercialisation of these limited resources?

Regards,
LaPala

LKG Member: http://longkanggang.blogspot.com/
LureMaker: http://www.pbase.com/sebarau/lure_stuff</font id=“size1”>

LaPala, the problem is huge unless you break it down into bite sized pieces. Education is a fairly easy one and is happening right now, all be it much too slowly for most of us. We can all set an example in our own actions and try to pass this on to those we fish with. Some of the clubs in Malaysia associated with MFN, such as your own LKG are good avenues for this, as are local publications such as R&L.

Legislation is a little tougher and also needs to be broken down into manageable pieces. The “Save our Malaysian Billfish” campaign is one such initiative, with a very specific goal. The Kelah Sanctuary operation and associated research is another. Commercialisation of these resources is not necessarily bad, since I believe that conservation and management initiatives can only succeed if the economic benefits of keeping a recreational fishery alive outweigh the short term commercial gains of catching and killing the same fish. Ecotourism (which should include recreational fishing) is a huge industry!

History has examples to be learned from and there is even an Earnst and Young audit of Marlin Fisheries in Australia that is very hard to ignore.

Legislation needs to include the environment as much as it does fisheries, since many species are very dependant upon their environment being undisturbed. Kelah are are good example of a fish in danger as much from habitat loss as from anglers. Many of the policy makers themselves have a vested interest in short term gains, rather than long term management; such is the nature of politics, but it’s the politicians who need to be educated just as much as anyone else. Individuals can write letters (in the UK it would be to your MP and the Fisheries Minister), but often more impact is gained by organisations such as PeMM with their better organisation and co-ordination.

And the best way to get things done is not by confrontation. It’s by working together with other interested groups, such as environmental conservation groups and even commercial fishermen working towards goals which ultimately may diverge but for now need to move in the same direction.

There are some interesting views for and against revealing hot spots in the recent pages of the PB thread;

http://www.fishing.net.my/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7733&whichpage=20

It comforts me to think that those that keep secret spots a secret and those that are willing to share their experience here on the forum generally fall into the ethical angling group who actually want to see fisheries protected from harm. Neither of these groups is actually a problem. The destination we seek is the same although we may travel a different road to get there.

Some people hide spots and do it well. They are being true to themselves. Others will happily share information with others. They are also being true to themselves. A third group try to hide spots and do it badly. An example of doing it badly would be a post that says “Guy’s, you know that great place I showed you at the weekend, please don’t tell anyone.”

The end result, which we all fear and wish to avoid, is the destruction of Malaysia’s fisheries. I don’t think there is a direct link between this and revealing the spot or keeping it a secret, which is actually very hard to do. It’s brought about by a lack of responsibility, lack of education, lack of legislation, lack of enforcement and many other factors. Keeping spots secret is only a very short term solution at best and doesn’t tackle the main issues, but whether you keep secrets or not, we’re all fishermen here. We all love to fish.

Most of the folks who post in the pro secret camp have had “bad experiences” and I’m keen to learn just what those bad experiences were and which user groups of the resource were involved. Pinpointing where the problems lie goes some way towards finding a solution. I’d be quite surprised if the damage is attributable only to recreational anglers.